Harringay online

Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

How can we get our local politicians and other public servants to post regularly in this forum?

I've been asked by a shyer member to put up this topic in the hope that more people will contribute their ideas and strategies, inspired by Michael Andersen's post:

Why do so few HoL members post on this site?

I think many of us want to be able to ask them stuff directly on this site (a sort of 'virtual surgery') and get a timely reply.  I'd extend that to Council Officers too. For the politicians, I suppose there are two sorts of posts we might want to make:

a) 'Business' questions/comments about things like why everyday services are not up to scratch etc.  We might have to ban things that really ought to be reported using the Councils reporting facilities, because they can't have an official and an unofficial system for dealing with litter or whatever is counter-productive. Politicians are supposed to be a conduit to power though and if we get together and press for things here and they are 'on duty' then we as a band of locals can work for beneficial change more effectively online than anywhere else. Hugh's Cash Mob for instance is an example of direct, local action that surely Cllrs want to and should be involved in - HoL discussions can create actual local change:

b) 'Political' questions about wider issues like going to war - should that be limited to our MP's though?  Do you want to read non-ward-specific views from your ward Councillor over matters they have no real control over?  The Council can declare the borough a 'Frack-Free Zone' which is an international issue, so it's not as if they are powerless but you know what I mean.

Issues like whether or not there should be cuts or could we not use our savings and borrow against our future wealth as it's so expensive and damaging to cut, cut, cut are relevant to local issues. With so little money and so many in poverty in the East - how can the rich West expect political support for even a single penny? Some Cllrs in the past have, for instance, refused to enact central government cuts and as far as I recall went to prison for it, provoking a law that means they can't simply refuse what Whitehall orders. The Chief Exec of Barnet has now moved jobs to be the Chief Exec of Haringey - do we want to create content that makes local political points as a spur to action?:

So, are those the sorts of discussions we want to have here with our reps and between ourselves?

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Some UK politicians are very 'internet-savvy'. So as to try to take the measure of our politicians, here are some Councillors who are digital award winners:

Cllr Melvyn Caplan, Westminster City Council was the driving force behind the Tri-Borough’s Customer Led Transformation Programme. This encouraged the adoption of new technologies internally, such as interactive and collaborative meeting room tools and the incorporation of mobile and tablet devices into council work, saving over £1m across the council 

Cllr Muhammed Butt, London Borough of Brent led a transformation of the way that Brent Council operates, incorporating social media into its communications, along with live-streaming of council meetings. By making digital innovation central to the council’s activity, Cllr Butt has helped to ensure that technology is utilized to protect and enhance essential services.

Cllr Stephen Canning, Braintree District Council developed and supported the concept of ‘Braintree hour’ on twitter, which encourages the promotion of local businesses to the community, as well as building community cohesion. The scheme has spread to other council throughout the region.

Cllr Theo Blackwell, London Borough of Camden lead LB Camden’s first digital strategy, encouraging collaboration and new thinking across the council, as well as building partnerships with business. Innovations at the council include coding of after school clubs, expanded public wi-fi access, peer-to-peer lending schemes, and digital inclusion work in social housing.

Cllr Tom Sleigh, City of London Council ran a successful online campaign to reinstate rubbish bins in the City of London, twenty years after they were removed following terrorist activity. He launched a similar campaign to reduce speed limits to 20Mph across the City, using social media, surveys, and innovative methods of sharing information.

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Salford Council has put HoL-like facilities on their own website - would things like this not be better:

Current discussion forums on this website:

As we know that our local politicians don't post here, I'd like to simulate what our councillors/politicians might argue if they did actually post here:

1) It is a relatively low-paid job (starting salary £10,500) and there are literally thousands of meetings to go to - each ward in Haringey, for instance, has loads of community events (many in the evenings) which local Cllrs feel obliged to attend.  Apart from the work of attending numerous policy meetings and dealing with people's problems by chasing Council Officials, most Cllrs put in way more hours than they're supposed to - most have second jobs too I think, some full-time.  So, time spent HoL-typing is a dereliction of their duty to put themselves in front of local people and listen, then take up the issues raised by the face-to-face contacts they say are the only way to do 'real' politics. Be good to see a breakdown of how they spend their time on our behalf.

2) Politicians are 'people people' - all the way up the chain the paramount interaction is always stressed as being 'talking to people', even Cabinet Ministers regularly knock on doors apparently. I think this is an excuse and simply untrue today anyway. Many of the older ones just don't 'get' the internet. Claiming to be 'in touch' with the electorate gives them the chance that they often take to say 'people tell me' or 'my constituents think' when the human truth is that most politicians hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. Ask them what the main issues are in their wards and they cite things that others would prioritise differently - it's a matter of opinion - they are not accurate surveyors - they could be better at quantifying views. Considering the main things they ignore specifically:

  • Facebook: they don't consider it worth posting to Facebook for instance whereas many here would probably think they ought to. What would be better on Facebook here than there?  Many have the problem that they've already got a 'personal' Facebook page so are stuck with converting it to a 'public' page, which exposes their 'real' friends to a wider exposure than they signed up for.  Almost none of them know how to post in one place and have it 'syndicated' - they are not generally techophiles.
  • Twitter: many councillors do tweet, with the result that we are drowning in Tweets that nobody really looks at and no-one outside their circle ever responds to, so this is proof in their eyes that digital is only for people with time on their hands. We could tweet our Cllrs and they would probably react, but why don't we do that? From a Cllrs point of view, trying to plan how you spend your time must be close to impossible as residents can pop up at any time 24hrs a day with an issue you need to respond to.
  • Blogs: lots of work for very little measurable return. You try writing even one paragraph of political comment - it could take you all afternoon,  Risk that what you wrote might accidentally come back to haunt you or worse, that nobody at all would even bother to read it. Fierce competition from great political bloggers could make yours look pathetic.  You're imposing a liability on future Cllrs to match your output - they won't thank you for that.
  • Newsfeeds - how would it be if a Cllrs auto-posted a newsfeed of all their activities on HoL (say auto-posting their tweets for instance) - do we want that? Wouldn't it be seen as a cynical bit of advertising? Would anyone subscribe to it?

4) Political posts on HoL attract 'history's greatest monster' type vitriol - people make virulent, unsubstantiated personal attacks on the character of local politicians they've never met, often barging into a topic and steering it towards hatred, racism etc.  Any politician who posts here risks a shed-load of this sort of horrible stuff from us - what's in it for the politician?  They'd need an army of clerical help to unpick each accusation and debunk it and none have that resource - if they had they'd spend it otherwise.

5) Geographically HoL is limited to Harringay. Bounds Green has an excellent HoL-type forum for example, so why would anyone from round there post here? We all know that this site reaches all of Haringey (alright, there's better coverage of the West of the borough, but it could have a lot more Eastern stuff if people would bother) but they will say the clue's in the name. There is no one forum for the whole of Haringey and why should there be?  There are no politicians who represent the whole of Haringey (discounting the 'ruling' party on the Council) - it's split by two MP's and lots of ward councillors. So, how would it work, a 'Tottenham' section on HoL for instance?

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To remind you, our local politicians are:

Tottenham: Incumbent: David Lammy MP(Labour)

prospective: any?

Hornsey and Wood Green: Incumbent: Lynne Featherstone MP(Liberal Democrat) 

Prospective: Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green,Labour):

any others?

Haringey Councillors:

Councillor
Photograph
Councillor
Political party
Ward
photo of Councillor David Beacham

Councillor David Beacham

Work mobile: 07528 443838

Work: david.beacham@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Alexandra
photo of Councillor Liz McShane

Councillor Liz McShane

Work mobile: 07812 677729

Work: liz.mcshane@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Alexandra
photo of Councillor James Patterson

Councillor James Patterson

Work mobile: 07812 677720

Work: james.patterson@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Alexandra
photo of Councillor Clare Bull

Councillor Clare Bull

Work mobile: 07812 677743

Work: clare.bull@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bounds Green
photo of Councillor Joanna Christophides

Councillor Joanna Christophides

Work mobile: 07854 544697

Work: joanna.christophides@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bounds Green
photo of Councillor Ali Demirci

Councillor Ali Demirci

Cabinet Member for Planning

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 075408 54293

Work: ali.demirci@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bounds Green
photo of Councillor Joseph Ejiofor

Councillor Joseph Ejiofor

Work mobile: 07940 005507

Work: joseph.ejiofor@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bruce Grove
photo of Councillor Stuart McNamara

Councillor Stuart McNamara

Cabinet Member for Environment

Work: 020 8489 2687 (office)

Work mobile: 07854 544696

Work: stuart.mcnamara@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bruce Grove
photo of Councillor Felicia Opoku

Councillor Felicia Opoku

Work mobile: 07812 677717

Work: felicia.opoku@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bruce Grove
photo of Councillor Jason Arthur

Councillor Jason Arthur

Cabinet Member for Resources and Culture

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 07812 677736

Work: jason.arthur@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Crouch End
photo of Councillor Natan Doron

Councillor Natan Doron

Work mobile: 07815 700588

Work: natan.doron@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Crouch End
photo of Councillor Sarah Elliott

Councillor Sarah Elliott

Leader of the Opposition

Work mobile: 07812 677730

Work: sarah.elliott@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Crouch End
photo of Councillor Patrick Berryman

Councillor Patrick Berryman

Work mobile: 07812 677741

Work: patrick.berryman@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Fortis Green
photo of Councillor Martin Newton

Councillor Martin Newton

Home: 020 8489 4005

Work: martin.newton@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Fortis Green
photo of Councillor Viv Ross

Councillor Viv Ross

Work: 0208 444 9516

Work: viv.ross@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Fortis Green
photo of Councillor Gina Adamou

Councillor Gina Adamou

Work: gina.adamou@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Harringay
photo of Councillor Emine Ibrahim

Councillor Emine Ibrahim

Work mobile: 07812 677724

Work: emine.ibrahim@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Harringay
photo of Councillor James Ryan

Councillor James Ryan

Work mobile: 07812 677710

Work: james.ryan@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Harringay
photo of Councillor Clive Carter

Councillor Clive Carter

Work mobile: 07812 677737

Work: clive.carter@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Highgate
photo of Councillor Bob Hare

Councillor Bob Hare

Home: 020 8348 2710

Work mobile: 07870 157703

Work: bob.hare@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Highgate
photo of Councillor Liz Morris

Councillor Liz Morris

Work mobile: 07818 094573

Work: liz.morris@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Highgate
photo of Councillor Adam Jogee

Councillor Adam Jogee

Work mobile: 07812 677723

Work: adam.jogee@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Hornsey
photo of Councillor Jennifer Mann

Councillor Jennifer Mann

Work mobile: 07812 677727

Work: jennifer.mann@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Hornsey
photo of Councillor Elin Weston

Councillor Elin Weston

Work mobile: 07812 677 711

Work: elin.weston@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Hornsey
photo of Councillor Mark Blake

Councillor Mark Blake

Work mobile: 07812 677738

Work: mark.blake@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Muswell Hill
photo of Councillor Pippa Connor

Councillor Pippa Connor

Chair of Adults and Health Scrutiny Panel

Work mobile: 07812 677734

Work: pippa.connor@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Muswell Hill
photo of Councillor Gail Engert

Councillor Gail Engert

Home: 020 8489 4005

Work: gail.engert@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Muswell Hill
photo of Councillor Peray Ahmet

Councillor Peray Ahmet

Work mobile: 07812 677735

Work: peray.ahmet@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Noel Park
photo of Councillor Denise Marshall

Councillor Denise Marshall

Work mobile: 07812 677721

Work: denise.marshall@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Noel Park
photo of Councillor Alan Strickland

Councillor Alan Strickland

Cabinet Member for Housing and Regeneration

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 07854 481050

Work: alan.strickland@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Noel Park
photo of Councillor Kaushika Amin

Councillor Kaushika Amin

Mayor of Haringey

Work mobile: 07977 562105

Work: kaushika.amin@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Northumberland Park
photo of Councillor John Bevan

Councillor John Bevan

Work mobile: 07967 336448

Work: john.bevan@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Northumberland Park
photo of Councillor Sheila Peacock

Councillor Sheila Peacock

Work mobile: 07967 336234

Work: sheila.peacock@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Northumberland Park
photo of Councillor Dhiren Basu

Councillor Dhiren Basu

Work mobile: 07971 804722

Work: dhiren.basu@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Seven Sisters
photo of Councillor Joe Goldberg

Councillor Joe Goldberg

Cabinet Member for Economic Development, Social Inclusion and Sustainability

Work: 020 8489 2687 (office)

Work mobile: 07794 218566

Work: joe.goldberg@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Seven Sisters
photo of Councillor Claire Kober

Councillor Claire Kober

Leader of the Council

Work: 020 8489 2241

Work: claire.kober@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Seven Sisters
photo of Councillor Barbara Blake

Councillor Barbara Blake

Chair of Environment and Community Safety Scrutiny Panel

Work mobile: 078126 77740

Work: barbara.blake@haringey.gov.uk

Labour St Ann's
photo of Councillor Peter Morton

Councillor Peter Morton

Cabinet Member for Health and Wellbeing

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 07812 677713

Work: peter.morton@haringey.gov.uk

Labour St Ann's
photo of Councillor Ali Gul Ozbek

Councillor Ali Gul Ozbek

Work mobile: 07812 677716

Work: aligul.ozbek@haringey.gov.uk

Labour St Ann's
photo of Councillor Tim Gallagher

Councillor Tim Gallagher

Work mobile: 07812 677728

Work: tim.gallagher@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Stroud Green
photo of Councillor Kirsten Hearn

Councillor Kirsten Hearn

Chair of Children and Young People Scrutiny Panel

Work mobile: 07583 119123

Work: kirsten.hearn@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Stroud Green
photo of Councillor Raj Sahota

Councillor Raj Sahota

Work mobile: 07812 677709

Work: raj.sahota@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Stroud Green
photo of Councillor Isidoros Diakides

Councillor Isidoros Diakides

Home: 020 8340 8477

Work: isidoros.diakides@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Green
photo of Councillor Makbule Gunes

Councillor Makbule Gunes

Work mobile: 07812 677722

Work: makbule.gunes@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Green
photo of Councillor Bernice Vanier

Councillor Bernice Vanier

Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Communities

Work: 020 8489 2241 (office)

Work mobile: 07817 954961

Work: bernice.vanier@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Green
photo of Councillor Vincent Carroll

Councillor Vincent Carroll

Work mobile: 07812 677739

Work: vincent.carroll@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Hale
photo of Councillor Lorna Reith

Councillor Lorna Reith

Home: 020 8376 2310

Work: lorna.reith@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Hale
photo of Councillor Reg Rice

Councillor Reg Rice

Work mobile: 07854 002078

Work: reg.rice@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Hale
photo of Councillor Eugene Akwasi-Ayisi

Councillor Eugene Akwasi-Ayisi

Work mobile: 07812 677732

Work: eugene.akwasi-Ayisi@haringey.gov.uk

Labour West Green
photo of Councillor Eddie Griffith

Councillor Eddie Griffith

Work mobile: 07870 157701

Work: eddie.griffith@haringey.gov.uk

Labour West Green
photo of Councillor Toni Mallett

Councillor Toni Mallett

Work mobile: 07870 157883

Work: toni.mallett@haringey.gov.uk

Labour West Green
photo of Councillor Charles Adje

Councillor Charles Adje

Chair of Housing and Regeneration Scrutiny Panel

Home: 020 8800 7658

Work: charles.adje@haringey.gov.uk

Labour White Hart Lane
photo of Councillor Gideon Bull

Councillor Gideon Bull

Chair Overview & Scrutiny Committee

Work mobile: 077995 86111

Work: whl@gideonbull.co.uk

Labour White Hart Lane
photo of Councillor Anne Stennett

Councillor Anne Stennett

Work: public no - 020 8815 9208

Work mobile: 07854 002675

Work: anne.stennett@haringey.gov.uk

Labour White Hart Lane
photo of Councillor George Meehan

Councillor George Meehan

Work mobile: 07967 336120

Work: george.meehan@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Woodside
photo of Councillor Ann Waters

Councillor Ann Waters

Cabinet Member for Children and Families

Work: 020 8489 2687(office)

Work mobile: 07854 002470

Work: ann.waters@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Woodside

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Please, please don't make personal comments about their views, conduct, strengths, failing etc - this is a discussion about how and why we can get them to be active participants on HoL, not a chance to lambaste/praise them.

Tags for Forum Posts: Catherine West, David Lammy, Lynne Featherstone, MP, democracy, engagement, involvement, local politics

Views: 4099

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Replies to This Discussion

Since when were the Friends of Finsbury park inclusive?

"I can understand their desire not to get embroiled in ongoing exchanges with people who won't listen..."

Hugh, I don't think you've quite got the measure of this - it's very much the other way around. The Friends apparently prefer to operate in an echo chamber where nobody disagrees with them, hence their disappearance from here and a more selective approach to who they allow in as a member.

Their campaigning here deserved to be robustly challenged in order to protect the interests of park users from the actions of a tiny minority. The Friends have avoided acknowledging inconvenient facts and opposing views, and dismissed those making them as trolls, sockpuppets and Council stooges.

Your own position is clear from your "flamers and trolls" comment but if you think the Friends have been criticised without basis you need to go back and re-read those threads while keeping in mind that they gambled with the park's main source of income, lost their court case and wasted tens of thousands of taxpayers' money in the process.

Just focusing on the Friends for a minute Hugh, some of us did a little research, proved that the action over wireless was approved by about 20 people and showed that the new committee were impatient to go legal, rather than build bridges with the council.

If that is what you are calling trolling and flaming then you are falling for their game.

They also seem to be operating outside of their remits as submitting to the charity commission by pick and choosing who can and can't be their friends!

I'm not taking any sides here, I'm merely picking up on the issue of deciding whether or not to contribute.

Chris Setz. You accused me of lying. And then you re-define 'lie' as when "someone states a negative opinion as a fact". 

As an example of this form of  "lying" you quote a single paragraph from one of my exchanges with Clive Carter. Maybe you didn't spot that the topic was the policy of Haringey Council leadership to use Finsbury Park as an asset to generate maximum income. And how the Friends Group were challenging this view of local councils' policies towards publicly owned assets like parks.

Well, you may agree with the Friends Group or the Council, But this is not a lie. Or my opinion presented as fact. It was an accurate factual description of two points of view. One stresses the Council should make money, come what may. The other stresses the high risks of a strategy which can end up with no budget for parks; only income targets from lettings. (Or perhaps in the future, selling bits off.)

Underlying these two viewpoints there's a factual description of two conflicting theories about Public finances; and taxation, Social Security and how modern economies work.
Why did I refer to "gods of austerity" and suggest the Council's policies were "making sacrifices of the poorest and most vulnerable? There is a clue in the next two sentences which you left out.
"It clearly works, as Mount Muswell has not recently erupted in anger."

Now, obviously Muswell Hill is not a live volcano and there are no actual human sacrifices. So what point was I making? Simply that the Austerity policy is a magical belief system. Plainly George Osborne thought it works. He and his friends have a magical theory that by "rolling back the State" the market will provide. The Labour Party has never believed in this magic - at least until recently. But our Council Leadership still thinks it works. And the latter is planning to destroy people's homes and jobs and futures as part of the Austerity/Market solution to Tottenham's problem.

Obviously you are not going to be convinced by me.  So please talk to people in Tottenham who are involved in campaigning. Talk to Martin Ball who you respect. Talk to Rev Paul Nicolson who is campaigning against poverty. Speak to people whose homes are threatened by "red lines" drawn on planning maps. Look at the minutes of the Landowners Group, the real policy makers in Tottenham. A non-elected group which meet in secret. Talk to people in 'Defend Council Housing'. 
Chris, there is no "bright and sunny future", under the current Council leadership.  Political truth need not be consensus when there is no middle ground. And please don't assume I'm in the slightest "bitter". Any more than Rev Paul Nicolson is bitter. Though he's a far braver man than me and is prepared to go to prison for his principles.
Nor am I any sort of 'leader'. Simply one man who spent sixteen years on the Council watching Haringey Labour being taken over by a small group of right-wingers whose policies I genuinely cannot any more tell from the Tories.

You seem to find it very uncomfortable that I don't respect such people. Well respect is earned. And in the last five years or so they have earned none. I don't "denigrate" them if by that you mean I spread lies about Claire Kober and her pals. On the contrary I have the freedom and the responsibility to speak critically and speak the truth.

Thanks for the reply Alan.

You asked me for an example of stating opinions as facts so I quoted the first of many of yours I stumbled upon after a cursory HoL search:

"The Kobertories worship the same gods of Austerity and follow the same religious practices as your own Party. Continually making sacrifices of the poorest and most vulnerable to appease those gods."

I ask you to grant your targets respect, to not denigrate them.

You respond that your statements are facts and those you accuse do not deserve your respect.

End of.

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We are all critics of the council Alan and I'd like you to be more effective.

Were we to sit down together and exchange views, there'd be many, many things the council do that we'd both agree are wrong.  We could go further - we both know what they should do instead in many situations.

More important to me than two old men shooting the breeze is how can we bring about actual, beneficial change? In this thread I sought the means to get politicians to turn up here and engage with HoLsters on political issues that will result in better local government - more democratic control. I agree with Tony Benn's uncle:

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble; finding it everywhere, diagnosing it wrongly, and applying unsuitable remedies."

So they definitely need to be watched, and need correcting. The huge difference between us is that I admire our politicians for their qualities - I don't think they are evil, just often mistaken. I am pretty sure they, like me, genuinely want what's best for everyone and I fully accept responsibility for their decisions. They do stuff in my name, whether I like it or not. The only legitimate thing I can do in opposing (given that I'm not prepared to stand for election) is, by force of argument, convince them to change course. I want a better system (and yes, I know how that would work) but this is the system we have to work with until things change.

The easiest for me would be if they popped up here, laid out their case, debated objections and modified where necessary. I'm particularly keen in my belief that more democratic control is better. People engage less and less. Look at Zena's election as our Harringay Cllr - 25% turnout, only 11% voted for her. That's the mountain I want climbed - getting people to care enough to actually contribute the precious, enriching things we all possess - opinions and ideas.

Chris Setz, you ignore my response and repeat the same comment as before. Your ask me to grant my targets respect. They aren't my targets, Chris. They are my  political opponents. I believe people earn respect. You admire them for their qualities. I judge them on their actions.
You see yourself as an old man shooting the breeze. I am a citizen engaged with other citizens - young, old, and middle aged - to improve and prevent harm to where we live.
You seem to want everyone to be nice to one another and listen to one another's arguments. Yeah, that would be good. But I did the Mr Nice Guy stuff as an insider for years and years. I can honestly report to you that there are people who believe what they believe with a closed-minded-eyes-and-ears-tight-shut world view.

Don't believe me? Try Prof Joseph Stiglitz. He often writes articles along these lines and wrote one in the Guardian on 6 August. He refers to "market fundamentalism" - also called neoliberalism - as "an unwavering faith in markets". He says these beliefs "are held with such conviction and certainty immune to contrary evidence, that they are rightly described as an ideology".

Okay, I jokingly exaggerated to make the point that we are seeing almost a religious right-wing worldview. They may not  worship a volcano called Mount Muswell. Give them a property developer, starchitect or football millionaire and watch them kneel.
But forget the possibility that, open-hearted and open-minded, they will sit down with either of us and say with genuine curiosity: "Hmm, that's really interesting.  Please tell me more."

You probably know that even Oliver Cromwell, who wasn't exactly wishy-washy about other people's beliefs, wrote on one occasion:
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken."
You tell me you want a better system and that you know how that would work. You want to try your luck beseeching the KoberTories? Go ahead, shoot breeze.

Well Alan you have stated many times that Haringey is run by a small minority of "right wing" labour councillors.

If this is true why don't the majority who presumably are more to your taste simply step up to the plate?
Chris - the main reason that you will never get councillors to seriously engage on open fora like this, is that they cannot control the narrative. Alan is doing a brilliant job of completely ignoring my existence, because he doesn't like me challenging his opinions, or facts as he would have us believe.
They much prefer the more controlled space of Twitter or Facebook where inconvenient truths will never darken their inboxs.
I'm impressed that a small group of right wingers as you call them Alan can take over Haringey labour.

That's where your argument collapses. What on earth are the rest of the councillors doing if they allow a small group to dictate to them what they should do?

Isn't the truth that the vast majority agree with the direction being taken and that it's a small minority of which you were one disagree? And that you merrily voted along with these "right wingers" most notoriously of course for the wards corner development.
Ex Cllr your narrative and your "facts" change with the wind to suit your circumstances am afraid.

"I'm impressed that a small group of right wingers as you call them Alan can take over Haringey labour." <- don't be impressed. I've been warning that the membership was too low and that it was easy to take over a ward with just a half dozen friends.

Hi John, Totally agree - the hardest election most labour wannabe cllrs face in Haringey is the internal selection one.

But what I meant was Alan claims that a small minority of the 48 labour councillors are taking the council in a direction that he doesn't agree with.
If that is such an unpopular decision why don't the majority of cllrs do something about it?

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