Sainsbury's to Extend Harringay Premises for Online Delivery Hub - Another Bout of Traffic Chaos? - Harringay online2024-03-29T04:50:59Zhttps://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/sainsbury-s-to-extend-harringay-premises-for-online-delivery-hub?commentId=844301%3AComment%3A1219966&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI was recently at a meeting w…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-28:844301:Comment:12213302020-02-28T21:24:18.244Zmichaelwhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/michaelw
<p>I was recently at a meeting where it was pointed out that the 'Community Infrastructure Levy' - i.e. the amount developers have to pay to contribute to local facilities - is radically lower in the East of the borough vs the West of the Borough. I've done a bit of digging to locate the full figures:</p>
<p>The system divides the borough into three areas, West (West of the East Coast Main Line), Central (For the ladder, this means West of Green Lanes) and East (everywhere else) - see the…</p>
<p>I was recently at a meeting where it was pointed out that the 'Community Infrastructure Levy' - i.e. the amount developers have to pay to contribute to local facilities - is radically lower in the East of the borough vs the West of the Borough. I've done a bit of digging to locate the full figures:</p>
<p>The system divides the borough into three areas, West (West of the East Coast Main Line), Central (For the ladder, this means West of Green Lanes) and East (everywhere else) - see the documents below for the map: </p>
<p><a href="https://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/cil_charging_schedule_inc_annual_cil_rate_summary_for_2020.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener">The base rates for 2020 are</a>: [<em>NB: all the actual rates are slightly higher due to indexing since 2014 - see the linked document]</em></p>
<p>- West: £265 pounds per square metre</p>
<p>- Central £165 pounds per square metre</p>
<p>- East: <strong>£15 pounds per square metre</strong></p>
<p><a href="https://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/haringey_cil_draft_charging_schedule_2019_including_cover_sheet.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener">A revised system, which has been consulted on, has:</a></p>
<p>- West: £265 pounds per square metre</p>
<p>- Central £165 pounds per square metre</p>
<p>- East: £50 pounds per square metre</p>
<p><a href="https://www.haringey.gov.uk/planning-and-building-control/planning/planning-applications/pre-application-guidance/community-infrastructure-levy-cil" target="_blank" rel="noopener">The consultation on this change closed a couple of weeks ago</a>.</p>
<p>Note that supermarkets have a fixed rate of £95 across the borough, which is not proposed to be changed.</p>
<p>So a development in Crouch End or Muswell Hill currently generates more than 17x as much CIL money as one in the Gardens/St Annes or Tottenham. If the changes that have been consulted on go through then this will move from 17x to 'just' 5x</p>
<p>Looking at <a href="https://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/cil_charging_schedule_updated_governance_revised_reg_123_004_003.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener">the 2014 document explaining how this money is spent</a>, it states:</p>
<p>"<em>15%, known as the ‘Neighbourhood Proportion’, is to be spent on neighbourhood projects within the neighbourhood of contributing development (up to a maximum of £100 per existing Council Tax dwelling). In accordance with Regulation 59C, neighbourhood projects can include funding towards:</em></p>
<div class="page" title="Page 9"><div class="layoutArea"><div class="column"><p><em>o the provision, improvement, replacement, operation or maintenance of infrastructure; or</em></p>
<p><em>o anything else that is concerned with addressing the demands that development places on an area.</em></p>
<p><span><em>The funding allocation rises to 25% where a Neighbourhood Plan in place. At the present time, only the Highgate Neighbourhood Plan has been adopted, and one is currently being developed for Crouch End</em>" [the areas with Neighbourhood plans may have changed since 2014, of course)</span></p>
<p><span>So not only does this levy result in very substantially less money being raised in the East of the Borough, but 15-25% of the money is then spent in the Neighbourhood (and 25% of the western money is more than 4x the total money in the East!).</span></p>
<p><span>This all seems to accentuate the east-west divide in the borough.</span></p>
<p><span>I understand that this difference in cost is to encourage development in the East - but I wonder if this really does have an impact? </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p></p>
<p></p> Not wishing to sound too crit…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-27:844301:Comment:12211522020-02-27T23:50:05.845ZTTTHhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ttth
<p>Not wishing to sound too critical of highways and transportation at Haringey Council, I wonder how much CIL and S106 they get from Sainsburys and other commercial properties at the Arena which could be used to address the traffic issues and long term masterplan for the site? It's great that is doing so well and is popular but is it sustainable in its current form? Could it be more of a mixed use site with housing as well as commercial and underground parking?</p>
<p>Not wishing to sound too critical of highways and transportation at Haringey Council, I wonder how much CIL and S106 they get from Sainsburys and other commercial properties at the Arena which could be used to address the traffic issues and long term masterplan for the site? It's great that is doing so well and is popular but is it sustainable in its current form? Could it be more of a mixed use site with housing as well as commercial and underground parking?</p> And I'm a middle-aged person…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-26:844301:Comment:12207982020-02-26T20:44:15.630ZCarolinehttps://harringayonline.com/profile/CarolineFerguson
<p>And I'm a middle-aged person who still can't afford to buy her own home, despite working all hours (for a charity which works to support homeless people) on what was once considered a decent salary. So I am very grateful I'm still, just about, hanging on to my small one bed rental (right opposite the retail park where Sainsbury's is situated btw), even though it is touch and go. And I really appreciate all Harringay has to offer and have nightmares about the day I'm finally, definitively,…</p>
<p>And I'm a middle-aged person who still can't afford to buy her own home, despite working all hours (for a charity which works to support homeless people) on what was once considered a decent salary. So I am very grateful I'm still, just about, hanging on to my small one bed rental (right opposite the retail park where Sainsbury's is situated btw), even though it is touch and go. And I really appreciate all Harringay has to offer and have nightmares about the day I'm finally, definitively, priced out of the area. So, Sainsbury's having a home delivery service is not my biggest concern, all due respect.</p> Apparently you can still make…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-26:844301:Comment:12208892020-02-26T15:08:39.277ZHughhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/hjuk
<p>Apparently you can still make an objection online, even though we're past the official end date. Mine was late and published anyway.</p>
<p>Apparently you can still make an objection online, even though we're past the official end date. Mine was late and published anyway.</p> There are arguments for and a…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-26:844301:Comment:12209702020-02-26T14:34:27.636ZJJ Bhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/JJB
<p>There are arguments for and against home deliveries. The issue here is that THIS SITE, given the serious traffic problems it already generates, and, seeing that there are no plans to remedy the 'incongruous' layout of the retail park and the various access lanes and parking spaces is just not the place to put a delivery service for Sainsburys.</p>
<p>The place is log-jammed during peak traffic and Saturdays</p>
<p>Do they only plan to do deliveries in the night during off peak…</p>
<p>There are arguments for and against home deliveries. The issue here is that THIS SITE, given the serious traffic problems it already generates, and, seeing that there are no plans to remedy the 'incongruous' layout of the retail park and the various access lanes and parking spaces is just not the place to put a delivery service for Sainsburys.</p>
<p>The place is log-jammed during peak traffic and Saturdays</p>
<p>Do they only plan to do deliveries in the night during off peak periods?</p>
<p>How will they cope when there are matches at Spurs and Arsenal and concerts in F Park?</p>
<p>These plans are just downright stoopid. Censor my use of the word stoopid if you want. But it is plain starightforward english.</p> Well it wasn't even there whe…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-23:844301:Comment:12205692020-02-23T19:37:07.530ZMaddyhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/SleepingBeauty
<p>Well it wasn't even there when I moved here - still last days of the dog track.</p>
<p>Well it wasn't even there when I moved here - still last days of the dog track.</p> Lucky, not smart. Some really…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-23:844301:Comment:12204802020-02-23T18:34:34.360ZJohn McMullanhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/bogan72
<p>Lucky, not smart. Some really stupid people own homes, lots of really smart young people, don't.</p>
<p>Anyway, I don't think the supermarket factored at all in most buying decisions in Harringay.</p>
<p>Lucky, not smart. Some really stupid people own homes, lots of really smart young people, don't.</p>
<p>Anyway, I don't think the supermarket factored at all in most buying decisions in Harringay.</p> Compared to 5 minutes walk to…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-23:844301:Comment:12205592020-02-23T14:51:57.374ZCarolinehttps://harringayonline.com/profile/CarolineFerguson
<p>Compared to 5 minutes walk to Manor House station from where I live in Harringay!</p>
<p>Compared to 5 minutes walk to Manor House station from where I live in Harringay!</p> Not sure what your friend is…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-23:844301:Comment:12204702020-02-23T11:08:22.924ZElizabeth Mhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/Elizabethmackie
<p>Not sure what your friend is doing but it only takes 20-25 mins to walk from the Broadway to Finsbury Park if you don’t want to hop on a bus. </p>
<p>Not sure what your friend is doing but it only takes 20-25 mins to walk from the Broadway to Finsbury Park if you don’t want to hop on a bus. </p> Whether there are fewer vehic…tag:harringayonline.com,2020-02-23:844301:Comment:12203762020-02-23T10:47:31.260ZHughhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/hjuk
<p>Whether there are fewer vehicle trips to the store depends on all the issues I addressed in my original post.</p>
<ol>
<li>Will the catchment area for the online service be the same as the physical store? I suspect not. I imagine it will be far wider.</li>
<li>We'll still probably have most of the people currently travelling to Sainsbury's by car continuing to do so - data shows that many online shoppers are just supplementing their weekly in-store shop. </li>
<li>plus, an unknown number of…</li>
</ol>
<p>Whether there are fewer vehicle trips to the store depends on all the issues I addressed in my original post.</p>
<ol>
<li>Will the catchment area for the online service be the same as the physical store? I suspect not. I imagine it will be far wider.</li>
<li>We'll still probably have most of the people currently travelling to Sainsbury's by car continuing to do so - data shows that many online shoppers are just supplementing their weekly in-store shop. </li>
<li>plus, an unknown number of delivery vehicle movements of goods in (from Sainsburys, ebay and 350 other merchants)</li>
<li>plus, an unknown number of vehicle movements as people drive to collect Sainsburys online purchases</li>
<li>plus an unknown number of collection journeys for people using the click and collect for both supermarket shopping and Collect+ to service Sainsbury's ebay and 350 other brands.</li>
<li>Plus, evidence suggests that when people start shopping online, they get habituated to the convenience and buy much more frequently than they would if they shopped in-store. They often don't plan a weekly shop; they see they need something and just grab their phone and order it. Statista's data showed that whilst 50% of in-store shoppers still do a weekly shop, only 14% of online shoppers do. </li>
</ol>