Will the Number of Events Drop Dramatically at Finsbury Park? What the Income Figures Tell Us - Harringay online2024-03-29T10:10:12Zhttps://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/will-number-of-event-drop-dramatically-at-finsbury-park-what-the-?feed=yes&xn_auth=noIt's a huge dilemma though, i…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-22:844301:Comment:10759332018-04-22T17:50:49.702ZChris Setzhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ChrisSetz
<p>It's a huge dilemma though, isn't it. What if the Council have to close parks in Tottenham because of this ruling? They are legally able to do that because they are under no 'duty' to maintain parks for us.</p>
<p>And what about the 'gentrification' effect on the area of a 'luxury' park in one place whilst other parks are dreadful? I see some activists have successfully agitated for the closure of some small museums because the unequal spread of facilities harms poor locals, pricing them…</p>
<p>It's a huge dilemma though, isn't it. What if the Council have to close parks in Tottenham because of this ruling? They are legally able to do that because they are under no 'duty' to maintain parks for us.</p>
<p>And what about the 'gentrification' effect on the area of a 'luxury' park in one place whilst other parks are dreadful? I see some activists have successfully agitated for the closure of some small museums because the unequal spread of facilities harms poor locals, pricing them out.</p>
<p>They've already cut budgets in some boroughs so much that, for example, some parks that used to be locked overnight are not any more and so all sorts of damaging things go on that budget would have helped prevent, including people gathering to deal drugs under cover of darkness, bring 'attack' dogs out and 'training' them by goading them to strip the bark of the trees - a tree cannot survive that.</p>
<p>Who'd be a Councillor!</p> Very interesting ruling, Hugh…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-22:844301:Comment:10759962018-04-22T09:06:02.738ZMshttps://harringayonline.com/profile/MS
<p>Very interesting ruling, Hugh and one that many of us living near the park (and using it frequently) have always felt was the fair way of dealing with the events. It would certainly help my attitude towards big events being held in the park if I knew that all the money raised was going to be spent on Finsbury Park, and then be able to see each year genuine improvements and maintenance to a high standard undertaken. </p>
<p>Very interesting ruling, Hugh and one that many of us living near the park (and using it frequently) have always felt was the fair way of dealing with the events. It would certainly help my attitude towards big events being held in the park if I knew that all the money raised was going to be spent on Finsbury Park, and then be able to see each year genuine improvements and maintenance to a high standard undertaken. </p> Apparently, the Friends of Fi…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-20:844301:Comment:10753092018-04-20T11:05:55.851ZHughhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/hjuk
<p>Apparently, the Friends of Finsbury Park are pushing the Council to respect the judgement. A solicitor's letter has been sent to the Council asking them to "<span><em>amend policy forthwith to confirm that monies generated by Finsbury Park will only be used for the purposes of maintaining and improving Finsbury Park"</em>.</span></p>
<p><span>Read…</span></p>
<p>Apparently, the Friends of Finsbury Park are pushing the Council to respect the judgement. A solicitor's letter has been sent to the Council asking them to "<span><em>amend policy forthwith to confirm that monies generated by Finsbury Park will only be used for the purposes of maintaining and improving Finsbury Park"</em>.</span></p>
<p><span>Read <a href="https://www.thefriendsoffinsburypark.org.uk/finsbury-park/finsbury-park-events-haringey-council-in-breach-of-statutory-trust/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">more at the FoFP website</a>. </span></p> The Friends of Parks Groups o…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-20:844301:Comment:10755532018-04-20T10:52:49.280ZChris Setzhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/ChrisSetz
<p>The Friends of Parks Groups of which I am a member have grappled with this for a good long while, on both a local and national level. There are around 6,000 such groups in the UK, and growing. People care.</p>
<p>A deep concern is how vulnerable parks are. The Council has no legal obligation to spend any money on Parks and Green Spaces at all. They could sell them off, and have done in some places.</p>
<p>The…</p>
<p>The Friends of Parks Groups of which I am a member have grappled with this for a good long while, on both a local and national level. There are around 6,000 such groups in the UK, and growing. People care.</p>
<p>A deep concern is how vulnerable parks are. The Council has no legal obligation to spend any money on Parks and Green Spaces at all. They could sell them off, and have done in some places.</p>
<p>The <a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://www.natfedparks.org.uk/resources/" target="_blank">national campaign</a> wants to make it a 'statutory' duty for Councils to maintain our parks. Then standards can be applied so as, for instance, to make the economics more easily understood through comparison. Some progress has been made. </p>
<p>I suspect, as others imply on this thread, that the Council will move the money around so as to carry on earning and spending - what else can they do, build houses on them? A vicious right-wing austerity ideology but even if there's a change of government, it'll be a very long time before Councils, let alone parks, are adequately funded.</p>
<p>What is needed is what is always needed in both local and national issues - attention and involvement by those most directly affected. Use it or lose it! One thing that comes across if you look into this is that the Council Officers who square this circle day in day out are generally great people, dedicated to success with vanishing resources. I'm most interested in trees and you can see the tangible effects of their brilliant work over decades all around - there are as many trees as there are people in London, and they're blooming - that's a massive benefit to all of us, worth supporting.</p>
<p>There is a Friends group local to you - please join in if only to enhance your own enjoyment and meet 'birds of a feather'. Here's a list of most of the Friends Groups for Haringey parks and green spaces (maintained by the <a rel="nofollow noopener" href="http://haringeyfriendsofparks.org.uk/haringey_friends_groups.php" target="_blank">Friends Forum</a> - not a complete list):</p>
<ul>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.farrg.org.uk/">Albert Road Recreation Ground</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.friendsofalexandrapark.org/">Alexandra Park</a></li>
<li>Ally Pally Station</li>
<li>Avenue Gardens, N22</li>
<li>Belmont Rec, N15</li>
<li>Bluebell Wood, N11</li>
<li>Bounds Green, N11</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.bowespark.org.uk/">Bowes Park Community Garden, N22</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.friendsofbrucecastlepark.org.uk/">Bruce Castle Park, N17</a></li>
<li>Brunswick Park, N15</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://chadahs.org.uk/">Central Hornsey and District Allotments and Horticultural Society (...</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/libraries-sport-and-leisure/parks-and-open-spaces/z-parks-and-open-spaces/chapmans-green">Chapmans Green N22</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.friendsofchestnuts.org.uk/">Chestnuts Park, N15</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.coldfallwoods.co.uk/">Coldfall Wood, N10</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.crouchendopenspace.org/">Crouch End Open Space</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.fdlp.org.uk/">Down Lane Park, N17</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.downhills.org.uk/">Downhills Park, N15</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.duckettscommon.org.uk/">Ducketts Common, N8</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ediblelandscapeslondon.org.uk/">Edible Landscapes, N4</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.fairlandpark.org/">Fairland Park, N8</a></li>
<li>Finsbury Gardens, N22</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.thefriendsoffinsburypark.org.uk/">Finsbury Park, N4</a></li>
<li>The Gardens Community Garden, N4</li>
<li>Granville Road Spinney</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zzZboZqwHBkQ.kqnGWx6e-vXw&hl=en_US">Growing in Haringey</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://haringeytreewardens.org.uk/">Haringey Tree Wardens</a></li>
<li>Hartington Park, N17</li>
<li>Hornsey Gardens, N8</li>
<li>Ivatt Way Green, N15</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lordshiprec.org.uk/">Lordship Rec, N17</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.friendsofmarkfieldpark.org.uk/">Markfield Park, N15</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://meadoworchard.org/">Meadow Orchard Project, N8</a></li>
<li>Muswell Hill Playing Fields</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://newriver.org.uk/">New River Action Group</a></li>
<li>Nightingale Gardens</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/friendsofthepaddock/">The Paddock, N17</a></li>
<li>Paignton Park, N15</li>
<li>Palace Gates Embankment Nature Reserve, N22</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.parkland-walk.org.uk/">Parkland Walk, N4, N6, N8, N19</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://sites.google.com/site/priorycommonorchardn8">Priory Common Orchard, N8</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.fopp-n8.org.uk/">Priory Park, N8</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.fqw.org.uk/">Queen's Wood, N6, N10</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://friendsofrailwayfields.wordpress.com/">Railway Fields, N4</a></li>
<li>Rectory Gardens</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://noelparknorth.wordpress.com/friends-of-russell-park">Russell Park, N22</a></li>
<li>Springfield Park Nature Area, Bounds Green</li>
<li>Stanley Road Open Space</li>
<li>Stationers Park, N8</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.facebook.com/Friends-of-Tottenham-Cemetery-918302674888364/">Tottenham Cemetery, N17</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.facebook.com/friendsoftottenhamgreen">Tottenham Green</a></li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.tottenhammarshes.org/">Tottenham Marshes, N17</a></li>
<li>Tower Gardens</li>
<li>Weir Hall Action Group (Bull Lane playing fields and area next to Devonshire Hill School in Weir Hall Road N18</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="https://wolveslane.wordpress.com/">Wolves Lane, N22</a></li>
<li>Wood Green Common</li>
<li><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.woodside-park.org/">Woodside Park, N22</a></li>
</ul> Some new toilets would be muc…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-20:844301:Comment:10754802018-04-20T08:29:02.572Zmichaelwhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/michaelw
<p>Some new toilets would be much appreciated - the men's toilets in Finsbury Park are metal with little bits of wood stuck on as a 'seat', which is not very nice for adults & even worse for small kids...</p>
<p>Some new toilets would be much appreciated - the men's toilets in Finsbury Park are metal with little bits of wood stuck on as a 'seat', which is not very nice for adults & even worse for small kids...</p> It sounds like it all needs u…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-14:844301:Comment:10739522018-04-14T16:32:08.450ZHughhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/hjuk
<p><span>It sounds like it all needs unravelling and I don't have sufficient interest to go there right now. However, your last para sounds like it's close to the figures I reported. The 800 may have been an approximate figure or an estimated one. Alternatively the 767 I gave may have been an estimate. Either way the 'P14 figures' are close enough to the ones I got to assume they might be the same ones, bar the shouting.</span></p>
<p><span>It sounds like it all needs unravelling and I don't have sufficient interest to go there right now. However, your last para sounds like it's close to the figures I reported. The 800 may have been an approximate figure or an estimated one. Alternatively the 767 I gave may have been an estimate. Either way the 'P14 figures' are close enough to the ones I got to assume they might be the same ones, bar the shouting.</span></p> It's a puzzle and I have a fe…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-14:844301:Comment:10740502018-04-14T13:22:38.434ZJoeWhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/joew
<p>It's a puzzle and I have a feeling neither of us is right, possibly because the council itself is confused about the exact figures.</p>
<p>There's a news article <a href="http://www.enfieldindependent.co.uk/news/16122047.court-ruling-leaves-hole-in-haringey-parks-budget/" rel="noopener" target="_blank">here</a> which says the total parks service budget is £1.2m, of which £750K comes from events - and of that £750K, £600K specifically from the Finsbury Park events (and presumably the majority…</p>
<p>It's a puzzle and I have a feeling neither of us is right, possibly because the council itself is confused about the exact figures.</p>
<p>There's a news article <a href="http://www.enfieldindependent.co.uk/news/16122047.court-ruling-leaves-hole-in-haringey-parks-budget/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">here</a> which says the total parks service budget is £1.2m, of which £750K comes from events - and of that £750K, £600K specifically from the Finsbury Park events (and presumably the majority of that from the big weekend music events which bring in over £250K per event).</p>
<p>There are some more clues in the reports pack from the council's Overview and Scrutiny Committee on 26th March <a href="https://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/documents/g8628/Public%20reports%20pack%2026th-Mar-2018%2019.00%20Overview%20and%20Scrutiny%20Committee.pdf?T=10" target="_blank" rel="noopener">here</a> e.g.</p>
<p>p12 "Income from events in Finsbury Park in 2017/18 had been £800,000. £50,000 had been spent on fences and similar amounts on tennis, netball and volleyball courts. Smart bins had also been purchased, which sent a message to operatives when they needed emptying. In addition, £35,000 had been obtained from the Environmental Impact Levy. Some of this had been distributed to a range of user groups through small grants of between £600 and £1100. Signage, new disability bikes and distance markers for runners and walkers were amongst the other items that the money had been invested in"</p>
<p>but later it talks about "parks" rather than FP specifically:</p>
<p>p14 <span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #000000; cursor: text; font-family: 'Lucida Grande','Lucida Sans Unicode',sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">"Ms Robertson reported that £800,000 had been raised from events in 2017/18. £545,000 had been used for the running of parks. The remainder had been reinvested in parks. She was happy to provide further details. "</span></p>
<p><span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #000000; cursor: text; font-family: 'Lucida Grande','Lucida Sans Unicode',sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">There may be some answers in the webcasts for items 9 and 12 <a href="https://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=128&MId=8628&Ver=4" target="_blank" rel="noopener">here</a></span></p> Thanks for posting that set,…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-14:844301:Comment:10738872018-04-14T10:29:38.908ZHughhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/hjuk
<p><span>Thanks for posting that set, Joe.</span></p>
<p><span>I thought initially that we were looking at sets of figures that represent two different things, but I think not.</span></p>
<p><span>As far as I can interpret things, in 2017/18, a total of </span><span>£202,000 was used for Finsbury Park. The remaining £565,000 was used elsewhere the borough. </span>In 2015/16, apparently the whole of the income generated by events in Finsbury Park was spent on the park itself. So, in the year…</p>
<p><span>Thanks for posting that set, Joe.</span></p>
<p><span>I thought initially that we were looking at sets of figures that represent two different things, but I think not.</span></p>
<p><span>As far as I can interpret things, in 2017/18, a total of </span><span>£202,000 was used for Finsbury Park. The remaining £565,000 was used elsewhere the borough. </span>In 2015/16, apparently the whole of the income generated by events in Finsbury Park was spent on the park itself. So, in the year just ended, it looks like they may have robbed Peter to pay Paul.</p>
<p>If there's an ongoing need for the type of investment in Finsbury Park seen in the earlier set of figures, it'll make the question of whether to carry on runing the events much harder than the new set suggested.</p> I'm also not sure about the i…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-14:844301:Comment:10738792018-04-14T08:33:35.750ZJoeWhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/joew
<p>I'm also not sure about the interpretation. Here are the figures for 2015/16:</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2162889063?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2162889063?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721"></img></a></p>
<p>So in that year the base cost just to keep the gates open and grass cut etc. was £255K, it looks like the majority of the rest of the income was spent on new improvements to the park.</p>
<p>The source of the above is the final report of the…</p>
<p>I'm also not sure about the interpretation. Here are the figures for 2015/16:</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2162889063?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2162889063?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024"/></a></p>
<p>So in that year the base cost just to keep the gates open and grass cut etc. was £255K, it looks like the majority of the rest of the income was spent on new improvements to the park.</p>
<p>The source of the above is the final report of the <a href="http://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/finsbury_park_events_final_report.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Finsbury Park Events Scrutiny Consultation</a></p>
<p>One question is why the core park service costs have increased from £255K to £545K - maybe there are more core works planned this year?</p>
<p>And the other question is what the surplus reinvestment of £132K will be spent on (or has it already been spent?)- given that we now know it should only be spent on the park itself.</p> I wonder if they could change…tag:harringayonline.com,2018-04-13:844301:Comment:10737792018-04-13T22:40:40.639ZJoeWhttps://harringayonline.com/profile/joew
<p>I wonder if they could change the legislation slightly so that events income from a park can be only be spent in that park <em>or other parks in the same ward</em>? Then the money could be spent not just on Finsbury Park, but also Fairland Park, Duckett's Common, Green Gate Common, Railway Fields and perhaps that bit of the New River path between Hornsey Station and Wightman Road?</p>
<p>I wonder if they could change the legislation slightly so that events income from a park can be only be spent in that park <em>or other parks in the same ward</em>? Then the money could be spent not just on Finsbury Park, but also Fairland Park, Duckett's Common, Green Gate Common, Railway Fields and perhaps that bit of the New River path between Hornsey Station and Wightman Road?</p>