Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Ducket Beirfest as Advertised
Take Stock: German Beirfest on Duckets Common, 4-6 May 2018.
What would have been the local consensus?
Here are some definitions:
Common land is land owned collectively by a number of persons, or by one person, but over which other people have certain traditional rights, such as to allow their livestock to graze upon it, to collect firewood, or to cut turf for fuel.
A common is an open area of land within a settlement. Traditionally, a common was grassland at the centre of a rural settlement used for grazing with a pond for watering cattle and other stock. Providing, and may still provide, an open-air meeting place for the local people, which may be used for public celebrations such as May Day festivities. The term is used more broadly to encompass woodland, moorland, sports grounds, buildings and roads.
What rights are still accepted for commoners, and who qualifies?
A person who has a right in, or over, common land jointly with another or others is called a commoner.
Should a common be fenced at all, and how would this change the way traffic divides our two green spaces in the North of Harringay Ward?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by matthew cuthbert on
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I’m only interested in what our response would be collectively, and I am more interested in the long term role of Duckets Common, firstly as a resident, and someone interested in the renaissance of our green spaces, (and making them easier for us to access throughout the year.)
I studied urban design and fine art, both disciplines that observe, contemplate what goes on around them, and how (public) spaces are used. The Mayor of Curitiba, Brazil was a planner, his ability to go into politics and transform and shape a city is what inspired me to go into local politics, (raising questions and interest about our urban and green spaces.)
Witnessing local involvement, regenerating our parks has been an inspiration, from Freinds of Groups involvement and activity. Interest should be universal, regardless of affiliations, I also have a Green feather in my cap, as a Green Lib Dem member. How our politicians take on board or anticipate issues, and interrogate them, respond and act says more about them and the language they use.
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Seeing as this post is during a run up a local election I am minded to include a mark to note my affiliations: https://greenlibdems.org.uk/
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Mathew, It's important to understand that just because something is called a common, doesn't mean it's common land. And, whether it's called a common or a green, even when land is established as common land' it has rarely ever been in common ownership.
As I explained on another thread just recently, up till about the 1930s, Ducketts Common (along with what was recently rechristened Green Gate Common) was known as Ducketts Green (in fact, along with 'North Harringay', 'Ducketts Green' was a contender for the name of Turnpike Lane tube station when it opened in 1932).
I don't have detailed knowledge of the history of the land but I can tell you that historically it was part of Ducketts Manor in the old Parish of Tottenham. Willoughby Road marks part of the boundary of the border between Hornsey and Tottenham. The green was probably manorial waste land at some point, although that doesn't mean it wasn't also in private ownership. Whatever the case, it was either acquired by the Municipal Borough of Tottenham or fell to their guardianship. It was laid out as a 'Ducketts Common' in the early years of the twentieth century (see my link above). So Ducketts Common is a name bequeathed by Victorian/Edwardian civic leaders. It is not a historical name.
The borough of Haringey do hold a register of common land and town and village greens which anyone can inspect. I haven't inspected it, but when last I looked online, I concluded that Ducketts Common is not on the the register. I relied on two sources for that information.
1. Records from the Commons Registration Act of 1965 which required all councils to register all common land and town and village greens*. Haringey had registered the following by 1970:
Avenue Gardens, Caxton Gardens, Chapman's Green, Crescent Gardens, including King George VI Memorial Gardens, Land adjoining Bounds Green Road, Land outside Printers Alms Houses, Land at junction of Whitehart Lane and Wolves Lane, Land at rear of Wood Green Central Library, Riversdale Gardens and Park Lane, Tewkesbury Gardens, Trinity Gardens and Wood Green Common.
2. Defra's Magic website.
The only way to establish what precise rights, if any, pertain to Ducketts Green/Common and which remain unextinguished is to inspect the register.
PS: With regards to the definition of Common Land, it is a popular misconception that common land is land owned by the general public and to which everyone has unrestricted right of access. All common land is private property, whether the owner is an individual or a corporation. The owner of the common is normally the lord of the manor or his successor in title. Many commons are, in fact, owned by local authorities, the National Trust and other bodies for the public benefit, but not all commons offer total access to all comers.
Focusing specifically on 'rights of common' to 'common land, land which is owned by someone remember, ‘common’ in this context refers, to rights to do something rather than to lands. Common land is land subject to rights of common, i.e. rights enjoyed by one or more persons to use part of a piece of land or take the produce of a piece of land which is owned by someone else. Whilst rights for different lands shared much in common (boom-boom!) they were specific to each piece of land.
*All common land and all rights had to registered under the Commons Registration Act of 1965. The Act effectively preserved such rights as were registered, although rights may have evolved since. Also, only those rights which were registered could be actively used subsequently, and it is likely that in some cases there was ambiguous registration, whilst in others rights were simply not registered, and hence effectively extinguished.
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Thanks Hugh for a more definitive statement, general definitions though still may help our common understanding when considering the historic context. I wouldn’t rule anything out because of what Defra states, though still obviously significant in legal terms.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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A classic example is Clapham Common which was converted under the Metropolitan Commons Act 1878 to a park. It retained the name Common but no commoners rights.
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‘Green Lanes’ has become a physical barrier or divide, which is hostile to people using Duckets common, pedestrians and cyclists.
Adjoining Green Gate Common is now just visual green space isolated by its roads, which only adds too its common name as ‘The Triangle,’it can be more than an anomaly.
When the Bierfest comes about, this conflict will be only too evident.
Green Lanes has become a constant and potential danger to all that access Duckets Common, rather than serving or complimenting it.
It is a dangerous occupation crossing Green Lanes at Duckets Common, just to catch a bus, or cross the road.
The street width here needs to be re-examined in a modern context, is a four lane width stretch of road acceptable any more, should speeds be reduced as a calming measure for this green space? (reflecting its importance to leisure and community.)
In this area of Green Lanes, there is a high probability that you may be hit by vehicles, especially those exceeding 20 MPH, a lot more can be done, and nothing has been done in the twenty four years I have lived here, now it’s time to make changes and not accept the state we find ourselves.
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A good third of Duckets Common will be out of action, basketball and children’s swings will remain open, let’s hope the language remains cordial, and everyone drinking manages to navigate the Ducket’s end of Green Lanes safely. This stretch of Green Lanes along the Common is very hostile to pedestrians.
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